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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
After using the Powervision with the add on wideband kit to tune in the Torquehammer1 exhaust without the dbkiller some months back today I thought I might aswell put the dbkiller back in, reattach the wideband kit, load the ECM map supplied from Twinmotorcycles and start the process again, this time I will share my findings.

I will bypass all the basic steps of preparing pvv files and flashing tunes etc and get straight into the nittygritty stuff.

My prefered way of tuning is to datalog with the wideband O2 sensors and to make the changes needed with the Powervision Log Tuner software, this way I can just flash the ecm with the ecm map I want to use, press datalog on the pv screen and ride normally.The widebands will monitor any afr I set unlike the stock narrowband sensors which need the afr set to 14.6 for them to work. This way does require a computer to make the changes, but also makes it easier to follow whats happening inside the engine.

In the below picture you can see the target afr for each cell, notice that the entire afr is in openloop, normally for this map the cells set to 14.2 would be set 14.6 as done by Twinmotorcycles, I have done this because the efi isn't using the stock O2 sensors, remember I have removed them and fitted the widebands. The PV with wideband kit doesn't make real time changes, the changes are made on your computer.My goal is to have what the widebands see match the settings in the AFR table.Basically the efi is running off the VE (airflow) tables and will deliver a preset amount of fuel depending on engine load,rpm etc.The ecm map I used is a complete copy of the TTS map supplied by Twinmotorcycles including the VE tables.This is my first tuning session.

Target AFR's


This is what the actual afr was while taking the bike for a ride and datalogging for the first time with this map, compare these next two pictures with the target afr picture, you can see its running rich in just about every cell.

Front Cylinder.


Rear Cylinder.


With this knowledge the PV log tuner software automatically calculates the changes needed to the VE (airflow) tables and saves the file as a .pvv file. I then open up the WinPV software, (This is used to make the changes to the ecm maps and load the maps onto the Powervision unit ready to be flashed to the ecm) load the map I'm using into Winpv, select the boxes beside both VE tables and load selected values from my newly created .pvv file which has the new VE tables.After that I upload the new map into the PV unit and flash the ecm ready for another ride and datalog.

A great feature of the Winpv software is the ability to compare ecm maps, below are the changes of my new VE tables compare to the original VE tables. As you can see almost all of the changes are in the negative, this makes sense because I was rich before, the software has lowered the VE table values in that cell so the efi will deliver less fuel to reach the target afr's for that cell.

VE compare front cylinder.


VE compare rear cylinder.



To be continued after more riding :)
 

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Metal cannot think, therefore it cannot be held re
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821 Posts
Good work Stink. Hopefully your efforts will help remove the mysticism of EFI.
 
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
OK, second datalog after updating the VE tables and you can see that my actual afr's are starting to get closer to my target afr's. I will put the target afr's between the front and rear cylinder in the below pictures to make it easier to compare between target and actual.

Front Cylinder.




This process of datalogging, updating the VE tables, and flashing the ecm with the new tune goes on until my actual afr's are the same as my target afr's or until I'm sick of it ;)
When I'm done the wideband kit is removed, the stock narrowband O2 sensors go back in, the area in the afr table set to 14.2 goes back to 14.6, tuning complete.
If you have questions, fire away, if I can't answer them I can always make something up.... just kidding, someone here should be able to answer the hard question :)
 
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Some of the other stuff I haven't seen on other tuners you can tinker with using the Powervision is pretty cool aswell.
One that might interest people outside of the USA with the active intake aka. that flapper in ya airbox can be turned off when you pull the thing out but get the fault light coming up.
The temps at which the idle temp management system (parade mode) come on and off can be adjusted
Closedloop and adaptive management temps can be adjusted to what temps you want them to operate in, or just turn them off if your running full openloop.
And spark adjust by (intake) air temp, pretty handy if you are riding in a hot climate.

 

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A good read. Very cool stinkman! :clap:
 
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Why don't you leave the wide band O2 sensors in when your done tuning?
The widebands won't work with the ecm... they only work in conjunction with the autotune wideband module, the autotune wideband module doesn't control in real time, it only monitors.
Even when using the autotune mode on the powervision unit they only monitor, the PV can handle the transfer of the updated ve tables to your desired ecm map using the autotune mode,you can then flash the updated map to the ecm.. no computer is needed in this mode. I have used this mode and it works fine, it does make a datalog file for viewing on a computer but you don't really need it.

Basically the wideband autotune module is purely for tuning, once your done tuning it comes off, unless you want to run in full openloop and monitor what your afr is.
 

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Straights are only to get to the next corner
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2,686 Posts
Stink, what is the 'trigger' for the system to switch between closed & open loop? Is this triggered by the TPS and/or MAP sensor?
 
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
The switch to closedloop is in the afr table, any cell set to 14.6 is the switch to closedloop, any cell NOT set to 14.6 is openloop.
You can control the closedloop afr with the closedloop bias tables, but your control is limited to the narrowbands range, the richest they recommend is a afr of about 14.22 or 800mV. I have been told running that rich in closedloop can limit the life of sensors, but alot of people are still doing it :) some don't even know it ;)

If you look at the stock afr table below alot of it is closedloop, every cell you can see set to 14.6 is closedloop. And the closedloop bias in the stock map is set to about 14.67 up to 3000rpm and 70map, above that and it richens out to 14.64 :) untill it hits openloop and then they start dumping fuel in. Good reason to have oil cooled heads huh?

 

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Straights are only to get to the next corner
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2,686 Posts
Got it, tnx!

So when the ECM is in a cell that says 14.6 it looks at the O2 sensors to keep it there. Looking at the table you spend most of the time in closed loop during normal riding. That makes sense. When you whack the throttle you'll get outside the CL area and a fixed, predefined amount of fuel gets injected.

Clever stuff, these EFI systems. Love it. :cool:
 
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Yeah correctomondo :)
But from my research of the last few years running in closedloop afr's all the time during normal riding seems to be up for debate, some experts say its fine, others disagree.
That fuel table above is the stock fuel table, maybe its set like that to meet emissions laws, I don't have enough experience to say what is good or isn't, basically I'm a sheep and just follow along. Someone with alot of experience pulling down harley engines that knows what afr it was running at could tell you what effect different afr's have on the engine, and I guess someone with alot of experience dyno tuning could tell you what afr's give the best power gains etc... unfortunately I'm not that someone :)

The afr I'm using is posted at the start of this thread, and it feels real nice on the throttle.
 
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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Found some time to continue my tuning this morning, this time I wanted to run a test to make it easier to see where I'm at, because it gets a little confusing trying to match the afr table to the logged wideband results, as the afr table is in rpm and manifold pressure and the wideband results are in rpm and throttle position like the ve tables.

All I changed was the afr settings to 13.0 across the board, the efi will be trying to deliver the correct amount of fuel for the target afr of 13.0 in all cells, so the wideband logged results should be 13.0 in every cell aswell. Also turned off the acceleration enrichment setting in all its cells by changing all values there to 0.00, this should stop any interference from the accel fuel and give me a clean picture of what is happening.

AFR table set to 13.0


And the logged wideband results.



Unfortunately I'm not seeing 13 in all those cells, so still more to do yet.
It would be nice to get all this done in one day as I'm sure doing it over a few days must affect the results due to slight climate changes.So I will do a little more work on it just to get the cells that are way out closer to the target and be done with it, rough enough is good enough as they say out here in the sticks :)

A few pictures of my setup.
The PV unit.


The autotune unit (wideband kit) mounted under the tank, using the blackhorn airfilter gives you plenty of room under the tank.


The cables, the cables dynojet supply with these units are very long, to long for what I'm doing, so I just bunch them up near the battery and leave the side cover off.


A dyno would make this job so much easier but the great outdoors will do :)
 

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Cool--wish I would have purchased the PV now!

On the Thundermax, you can only see one row at a time and no 3D plots. I'd plot it myself in Matlab, but there's also no way to copy and paste the data (that I've found)! I was planning on comparing differences with Supertrapp discs, but way too cumbersome...
 
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