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Discussion Starter #1
I think a couple of guys have mentioned that they have a TMax and are waiting to install it, but after finishing up the tune on my stock ECM for comparison, I took the XR1200 up to Zippers yesterday to have the autotuning Thundermax installed.

I only put 40 miles on it last night after the install, and will need to let it dial in its fuel offsets, and then probably play with the AFR targets to peak out the performance, but I thought I'd post some first impressions.

First the install is pretty straight-forward. The complete ECM/autotuning unit will mount on top of the rear wheel liner in the stock ECM location. (I believe that Zippers is writing up install directions specifically for the XR1200.) If one wants to do this his/herself, the front O2 sensor is tough to swap out without an O2 sensor socket but can be done with an open-end wrench and crow's foot. (Zippers had the sensor socket.) Zippers has a "pigtail" for the computer connection which mounts permanently and will reach around from the ECM to the sidecover above the battery, to save pulling the seat pan periodically to read the map or "write" the learned offsets into the base map. The XR1200 stretches the wiring out to its limit, but the install is clean.

After loading a map for the XR1200 which they have worked up, and letting the bike calibrate the IAC settings in the shop, I headed home. Even though the map still needs to fully learn into my bike, there was nothing negative about the first 40 miles. Performance matched the tuned stock ECM in all areas, and the engine seemed to idle smoother and sound a little throatier when I got on the gas.

Once the bike learns in (which I'll get done this weekend if it doesn't rain), I'll try to post some data on fuel mileage, engine temps, overall performance, and ultimately dyno numbers. (D&D does already have some pretty impressive dyno results for the TMax with their exhaust.)

For now though, I'd say that if anybody wants an ECM that will plug in and match the feel of a tuned HD ECM, plus fully autotune for any intake/pipe mods in the future, the TMax seems like it works well.
 

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My giant goes with me wherever I go.
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14,911 Posts
Nice..,

Nice post Phad...yeah, those guys at Zippers know their way around a V-twin, eh?

Looking forward to the results as this thing takes control..... Thanks.
 

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It aint no good locking the doors, when the madnes
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7,305 Posts
Phaedrus
Does the T-Max replace the stock ECU or does it work with it?
 
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Discussion Starter #4
Phaedrus
Does the T-Max replace the stock ECU or does it work with it?
Scotty, It's a complete ECM/ECU replacement. You unplug the HD unit, and plug the TMax ECM in its place. You also replace the narrowband O2 sensors with the provided wideband O2 sensors. The new sensors plug into wires from the new ECM. Once installed, the untrained eye wouldn't know the difference externally.

The one major difference, aside from the wideband autotune feature, is that the TMax is an Alpha-N system. HD's ECM is speed-density. Experts disagree on which is better, but from a rider's standpoint I can't feel the difference in system-type. From a tuning difference, the TMax will self-adjust fuel delivery at any selected AFR level regardless of later pipe/engine modifications, across the whole map. Hope that helps.
 
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Discussion Starter #6
do you get a lot more horses with that setup? Or is it just running smoother and so on??
 
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Discussion Starter #7
do you get a lot more horses with that setup? Or is it just running smoother and so on??
Benny, I haven't put it on the dyno yet. With a close starting map like it has, the Tmax has tuned in very well after a few short rides on the road but will take a few more hours of riding to fully autotune all of the throttle and rpm points.

What I've seen before in back-to-back tests between the TMax and a dyno tuned HD ECM (on my other bike and on other people's bikes), is that with some minor map tweaks the TMax will deliver essentially the same HP without dyno time as the HD ECM can produce with dyno tuning. The TMax will also produce essentially the same quarter-mile times on the track, as a dyno tuned HD ECM.

In the past I've seen the TMax deliver essentially the same performance as a dyno tuned ECM, just without the dyno time. That said, it does take a smart user/tuner and some time with a computer, to fully peak performance with the TMax. The Tmax allows for timing adjustments but does not autotune timing. And, it will auto-tune fuel delivery but it relies on the canned AFR tables (or subsequent user changes to the AFR tables) to set the targets. In it's simplest form the Tmax is almost plug-and-play, but even it requires a smart user/tuner to gain the last few HP/ft-lbs of performance.

if that helps...
 

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Keeping Them Flying
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183 Posts
I've got a tmax and have been waiting for a base map for the XR. Tell me more.
 
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Discussion Starter #9
dyno results

Hi

I had power commander 5 fitted yesterday as I had cut out cat and changed cans on standard exhaust. Bike was running dangerously lean before set up on dyno. Don't know if this helps maybe it won't affect everyone. :)

Highlandxr
 
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Discussion Starter #10
Benny, I haven't put it on the dyno yet. With a close starting map like it has, the Tmax has tuned in very well after a few short rides on the road but will take a few more hours of riding to fully autotune all of the throttle and rpm points.

What I've seen before in back-to-back tests between the TMax and a dyno tuned HD ECM (on my other bike and on other people's bikes), is that with some minor map tweaks the TMax will deliver essentially the same HP without dyno time as the HD ECM can produce with dyno tuning. The TMax will also produce essentially the same quarter-mile times on the track, as a dyno tuned HD ECM.

In the past I've seen the TMax deliver essentially the same performance as a dyno tuned ECM, just without the dyno time. That said, it does take a smart user/tuner and some time with a computer, to fully peak performance with the TMax. The Tmax allows for timing adjustments but does not autotune timing. And, it will auto-tune fuel delivery but it relies on the canned AFR tables (or subsequent user changes to the AFR tables) to set the targets. In it's simplest form the Tmax is almost plug-and-play, but even it requires a smart user/tuner to gain the last few HP/ft-lbs of performance.

if that helps...
thanks for that answer. I'd like to see some before/after HP/torque measurements before I spend big cash on such a device.
I know I want more horses but not at all costs.
 
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Discussion Starter #11
Phaedrus Dyno run

So here's a quick dyno run.

The bike has a Pipercross filter and stock exhaust (drilled to make it free'er flowing).

It has the Thundermax installed, with a canned base map. No special AFR or Timing tuning has been done. This is from a canned Tmax install with 50 miles of riding on the road.

Peak HP (uncorrected) = 86.94 HP
Peak TQ (uncorrected) = 72.23 ft-lbs.



(Note: The run marked in blue was an initial not quite full throttle test run.)

The HP peaks at about 6500 rpm and starts to fall off. I noticed the same thing on FatBilly's run. Either this cam is done at 6500 rpm, or there is more to be had in the stock configuration with a little bit of timing and fuel adjustment. I'll try to find out when I have some time...

Overall the bike is very rideable, and gets 42+ mpg on the open road at 70-75 mph.
 

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Keeping Them Flying
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183 Posts
Do you think the auto tune feature will get more out of the engine with a few more miles?
 
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Discussion Starter #13
Do you think the auto tune feature will get more out of the engine with a few more miles?
Doug, it may get a touch more out of the engine at lower throttle points, but the autotune alone won't get more peak HP/TQ. I had played with the heavy accel on the cruise over to the dyno and the bike was autotuned pretty well to the target AFR at WOT. The below is the dyno sniffer's AFR reading on the bike:



It's a pretty flat line at 13. The recovery from the initial throttle twist runs a little lean, but we'll fix that.

What probably would get more out of the motor would be figuring out the best AFR settings for the bike on a dyno. I'll talk to Zippers about that. If it needs an AFR adjustment, once they dial it in, it will be plug and play for anybody who uses the TMax on the XR in the future. If though, it's a limitation of the pipe and cam, then this will be all the bike will deliver until a better pipe is installed. Once a new pipe is installed though, the TMax will autotune to the new air flow and peak out the performance with the new pipe without any dyno time.
 

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Keeping Them Flying
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183 Posts
Will Zipper's post the XR map on there update function of the software? Tech told me to use the 543 map initially.
 
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Discussion Starter #15
HP/TQ with some dyno time

With some dyno time at Zippers, I raised the HP and TQ significantly in my stock motor. I won't re-post my dyno chart, since it would look very similar to the previous, but the difference is that these are SAE numbers, vice the uncorrected that I posted previously.

For a stock motor with TMax, Pipercross air filter and drilled stock exhaust, I got: 87.1 HP and 72.6 ft-lbs (SAE).

That's about 5 more HP and 3 more ft-lbs than I got before playing with the AFR targets and timing. (The numbers happen to be very close to those on that uncorrected dyno chart that I posted earlier, as do the shape of the curves.)
 

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Bloke
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1,272 Posts
Phaedrus,

I have been getting different part number opinions from dealers on the right TMax for an XR1200.
Is the correct
one #309-324?
 

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Will work for tacos
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446 Posts
I dunno if this is right pete but might help I found it on their website "XR1200 Model Sportsters should use the standard #309-360 version ThunderMax. The AutoTune module fits the bike better. These models should also use the optional #309-324 Pigtail Harness (available on the "Accessories" page)."
 

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Warning! Fat people are harder to kidnap.
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1,373 Posts
SEST! :innocent: Later,
 
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Discussion Starter #19
Sorry for the delay, but like Beau says, you need the standard big twin TMax. It will plug into the carrier where the HD ECM is located. You do need to change out the hex head mounting screws for some allen head screws because of clearance issues.

On the web page they call it a 360 series but when you go to their ordering page it shows as a 364. The 324 cable will let you hook up the computer cable for programming without having to pull the seat and/or drill the seat mounting plate. On my install, the cable would just reach to the side of the bike between the frame and oil tank, and behind the flip down cover over the fuse box.

if that helps...
 
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Discussion Starter #20
SEST! :innocent: Later,
As much as I like the SEST, I do have to say that the TMax has some advantages. It keeps Closed Loop operation with wideband O2 sensors in 100% of the bike's operation. And the AFR lines which it delivers are flatter than any Tuner can get with the SEST, and this is overall the whole operating range of the bike. Although I didn't see any peak performance difference between a tuned HD ECM and a TMax, the TMax definitely produced a smoother running engine, probably due to its very even fuel curves.

just a thought...
 
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