Stage 1 headwork and 10.5:1 pistons

17467 Views 73 Replies 18 Participants Last post by Fat Billy, Jul 2, 2010

G

Discussion Starter · May 19, 2009

Well we finished the work on Doug's XR and got her on the dyno to mixed results.

Dyno run 3 was his stock bike with a Remus pipe, Xieds and a piper cross ac.

Run 37 was with our stage 1 headwork, 10.5:1 pistons in stock bore, Thundermax and a remus pipe with the muffler removed.

The Remus IS NOT a good pipe folks. We pulled the 2nd configuration with the remus pipe and it barely budged compared to the stock set-up. When we pulled the muffler off the whole personality of the bike changed. As you can see it was worth almost 15 hp and 15 ft lbs of torque in many areas. Doug is going to play around with some straight pipes and such and see what works well.

The headwork and extra compression did make about 7 more hp but I think there is a lot more available if we can figure out some better cams to use in this bike. It wants to rev and the stock cams while okay definately leave some power on the table.

I only wish I had had more time to play with the bike but Doug had to go back to Texas. The air fuel on the 37 run was still adjusting as we had just started to play with the muffler being off. With more riding it should get back to 13.5:1.

Thge thundermax was awesome and James at Zippers provided me with a great map. I highly recommend the Thundermax and get the map from James. Sorry Greg your map was not good. Way too rich in the midrange at full throttle.

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admin

· #2 · May 19, 2009

Sweet.....

Doug,
Looking forward to your review. It sounds like Dan spent a lot of time on your bike.....I know it was tough to live without it but it sounds like a lot was learned!

:clap:

Scotty

· #3 · May 19, 2009

That sorta rings true with what I've been saying about pipes on the other thread, and as far as the cams go i can feel them running out of steam on my motor when it gets up to about 5,500-6,000 rpm
These things are set up in the cam dept for midrange Torque so they're gonna get a bit lazy at high revs, i reckon with the right cam, exhaust and compression set up they should be good for 95 hp, must admit i thought you would have gotten closer to 90 hp though.

There ya go as to what i was saying about Remus's dyno figures, utter bullshit.

mortbike

· #4 · May 19, 2009

remus exhaust system

I am not at all surprised about the results with the Remus exhaust. I have a set. They look great(mine were powdercoated black), they are light, and relatively quiet even with the sound reducing baffle removed and offer good cornering clearance. I have the Piper cross filter, Adrenalin Moto scoop, and a sert tune and get around 85 hp and 72 lbs of torque similar curve as noted above. The headers are great but notice that while the muffler looks large, the internal diameter of the muffler is very restrictive at only 48 mm(1 3/4") diameter(quiet baffle removed) while the inlet to the muffler is 60mm(2 3/8") diameter. 1 3/4 " is not much breathing space for a 1200cc v-twin even with an efficient 2 into 1 header. These are relatively quiet mufflers made to meet Euro sound restrictions. Vance and Hines pipes are louder and less restrictive than most-I have had a set on order ever since I was disappointed with the sert tune results on the Remus(since early March). I was told by the V&H rep to expect their system to be somewhat loud. With two muffler outlets, they are not as restrictive-Notice how similar the torque and horsepower dyno curves for the Remus header with no muffler are to those on the posted Vance and Hines dyno run!
I will likely sell my Remus set-up to someone who wants a great looking, light weight, but quieter well engineered all black system. Mort

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Doug Mackenzie

· #5 · May 19, 2009

First off, Dan is a first class guy to work with!!!

After setting up the TMAX, I took a 200mi jaunt up into the Rockies to get the auto tune learnt. The initial results were quite disappointing. They were almost identical to the original pulls + about 2hp but mirroring the original curve. Dan and I looked at each other with that

:whistling:

kind of look.

After some head scratching, we got the bright idea to pull the tail cone on the exhaust basically giving a short tail piece after the Y section. The first pull was way lean to the tune of 18+. Took the bike for another 20 or so miles to to let the auto tune self adjust and what a difference and the bike sounds just plain mean. Anyway, due to time constraints, we only got three more pulls in the last of which is posted on the dyno chart. The TMAX brought the AFR into line pretty quick and boy what a change in the middle.

Although I kind of got caught up in the peak HP craze, and was disappointed to anly see 3-4 hp and about 5 TQ peak gains, one must consider the overall curve. Almost +15 right were you need it. Made me do alot of thinking. Now what about cams...

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Scotty

· #6 · May 20, 2009

Doug, did Dan have any thoughts on the intake being restrictive due to the size of the opening at the front of the airbox, i cant get it out of my head that it restricts airflow even with the Piper-cross filter.
It would have been nice to see a run with the airbox removed if for no other reason than to stop me thinking about it. :1eye:

G

Discussion Starter · #7 · May 20, 2009

Scotty said:
Doug, did Dan have any thoughts on the intake being restrictive due to the size of the opening at the front of the airbox, i cant get it out of my head that it restricts airflow even with the Piper-cross filter.
It would have been nice to see a run with the airbox removed if for no other reason than to stop me thinking about it. :1eye:

Would the "forced air" going into the air intake riding at 50 or 60mph make a difference compared to the stationary position on a dyno?

mortbike

· #8 · May 20, 2009

air scoop

Scotty-I picked up 2hp and 2 lbs of torque across most of the curve on back to back dynojet dyno runs(same dyno, same tech, but the bike was remounted on the dyno one hour later) with the piper air filter for both runs, the only change being the Adrenalin Moto air scoop on the second run. Mort

Doug Mackenzie

· #9 · May 20, 2009

Scotty said:
Doug, did Dan have any thoughts on the intake being restrictive due to the size of the opening at the front of the airbox, i cant get it out of my head that it restricts airflow even with the Piper-cross filter.
It would have been nice to see a run with the airbox removed if for no other reason than to stop me thinking about it. :1eye:

No. Didn't really think in that direction. My intuition makes me believe that the ram air effect once under way would seem to overcome any restrictions.

I still can't get over the middle of the Dyno graph with the muffler removed but you got me thinking now. It wouldn't be hard for a machine shop to bore the throttle body and put a bigger throttle plate in. At 50mm I don't think there is to much in the way of restriction there.

The nice thing about the TMAX is that if one did bore out the throttle body the auto tune would learn the new airflow characterisics.

Damn, now I got something else to think about.:devil:

Scotty

· #10 · May 20, 2009

XRider said:
Would the "forced air" going into the air intake riding at 50 or 60mph make a difference compared to the stationary position on a dyno?

I would imagine you would get a very slight ram effect but i aint so sure you would notice it.

mortbike said:
Scotty-I picked up 2hp and 2 lbs of torque across most of the curve on back to back dynojet dyno runs(same dyno, same tech, but the bike was remounted on the dyno one hour later) with the piper air filter for both runs, the only change being the Adrenalin Moto air scoop on the second run. Mort

That could have been due to the bike having been removed and reset on the dyno, or one or two other variables on the day, Matt pointed that out to me earlier today.
Who knows it could have been the scoop, i'm not convinced.
I would however like to see an XR run on a dyno with and then without the airbox, i dont know what it is but i am convinced that the airbox doesnt work that well.

Scotty

· #11 · May 20, 2009

Doug Mackenzie said:
No. Didn't really think in that direction. My intuition makes me believe that the ram air effect once under way would seem to overcome any restrictions.

I still can't get over the middle of the Dyno graph with the muffler removed but you got me thinking now. It wouldn't be hard for a machine shop to bore the throttle body and put a bigger throttle plate in. At 50mm I don't think there is to much in the way of restriction there.

The nice thing about the TMAX is that if one did bore out the throttle body the auto tune would learn the new airflow characterisics.

Damn, now I got something else to think about.:devil:

Doug, it aint the t-body I'm thinking about, its the actual size of the air intake hole in front of the airbox, just look at the surface area of the filter and compare it to a K&N round filter, there has to be getting on twice the surface area on a normal size filter than there is on the XR...
If you think along the lines of that, you are told a more free flowing filter is a power gain on a stock XL sporty with a filter that has twice the intake surface of the XR, so just going by that the XR is gonna need a bigger filter surface area to breath as well as it needs to..

Just a thought.

Doug Mackenzie

· #12 · May 20, 2009

Scotty said:
Doug, it aint the t-body I'm thinking about, its the actual size of the air intake hole in front of the airbox, just look at the surface area of the filter and compare it to a K&N round filter, there has to be getting on twice the surface area on a normal size filter than there is on the XR...
If you think along the lines of that, you are told a more free flowing filter is a power gain on a stock XL sporty with a filter that has twice the intake surface of the XR, so just going by that the XR is gonna need a bigger filter surface area to breath as well as it needs to..

Just a thought.

I hate to admit it but I just don't know. ( how emasculating). I've got the Adrenaline air scoop and I'm just not convinced that it is the answer to getting more air in.
Maybe if everyone got on the K&N site and hounded them they would get off their arse and develop a system for the XR. I've used their products in other applications and it's top notch. Don't know how they are received in the Euro market.

After looking at some of Dan's work though, and seeing some of the other combinations possible, it's the cams if you want real power.

Scotty

· #13 · May 20, 2009

Yep, cams and compression, but you need to feed them, air and juice.

K&N are big over here to but let me tell you a story.
Two weeks ago i actually pulled a K&N filter apart, i cant believe i have never done it before. It consists of four very thin sheets of cotton and has the fine mesh wire you can see on either side, the reason for the mesh is to stop it combusting if flame gets near it, the four sheets of thin cotton have a light coating of oil, thats it dude, no more no less.
If air is a problem a K&N filter aint gonna solve it, it will have the same surface area as the Pipercross which i am sure flows just as well as the K&N.
If air is an issue the only way to find out is to run it on a dyno without the airbox, with the filter removed from the airbox so thre is no restriction or with a filter that has more surface area.

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Doug Mackenzie

· #14 · May 20, 2009

Scotty said:
Yep, cams and compression, but you need to feed them, air and juice.

K&N are big over here to but let me tell you a story.
Two weeks ago i actually pulled a K&N filter apart, i cant believe i have never done it before. It consists of four very thin sheets of cotton and has the fine mesh wire you can see on either side, the reason for the mesh is to stop it combusting if flame gets near it, the four sheets of thin cotton have a light coating of oil, thats it dude, no more no less.
If air is a problem a K&N filter aint gonna solve it, it will have the same surface area as the Pipercross which i am sure flows just as well as the K&N.
If air is an issue the only way to find out is to run it on a dyno without the airbox, with the filter removed from the airbox so thre is no restriction or with a filter that has more surface area.

When I mentioned K&N, I was thinking of a complete system more than just a filter replacement. Maybe similar to what you have pictured but maybe a little more aesthetically pleasing.

G

Discussion Starter · #15 · May 20, 2009

When I had my XR done with all the good gear on the Dyno, I was told after the second run that that whilst the Remus header pipes are good the muffler itself was far too restrictive to get better results than what my XR got in the end. But in the real world of riding on the street my XR holds it own and gives the Ducati set a run for their money. Its not a 916 but it still surprises the crap out of them once they find out its a Harley thats been running along side. But in the quest for more power I'm just like the rest of you guys.....Ive had a taste and I want more. And to top it all off, I've always had a soft spot for V&H and right from the start I was going to wait until V&H brought out a system for the XR, if anything just to be different as it seemed like everyone had a Remus system and everyone seemed happy with them. After what seemed like an eternity I gave up waiting, I got tired of having the quietest Harley in town so I cracked under pressure and I got my Remus system and just to make my day, not even a fricken week later my buddies at V&H announce the arrival of the Black Widow System for the XR1200 "ya bastards". But in the end the Remus system still looks good and sounds okay and with the rest of the gear I have fitted I have a good spread of useable power so I'll get by, but every now and again I wonder what life would have been like if I just waited one more week. :tank:

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adrenalin-moto

· #16 · May 20, 2009

The Remus IS NOT a good pipe folks. We pulled the 2nd configuration with the remus pipe and it barely budged compared to the stock set-up. When we pulled the muffler off the whole personality of the bike changed. As you can see it was worth almost 15 hp and 15 ft lbs of torque in many areas. Doug is going to play around with some straight pipes and such and see what works well.

Very few peiople have the luxury of being able to run 'straight through' pipes, particularly over here in Europe. As soon as you start to muffle an exhaust you will lose power, and the Remus is a good compromise between power/weight and noise in my opinion.

G

Discussion Starter · #17 · May 20, 2009

While the Reimus definately saves a lot of weight it doesn't seem to make any more power than the stock pipes do. Just take a look at several of the folks who have posted dyno runs on here with stock pipes.

I understand that Europ has very togh sound regulations but the Reimus pipe just is too restrictive in my opinion to waarant spending that kind of money on one.

Fat Billy

· #18 · May 20, 2009

My reason for wanting a K&N filter is that K&N will not pass water as easily as a foam filter. In fact if you have a lot of water hit a K&N it will act as if stopped up untill it dries, when it dries or the water is blown out it's fine again. Many years ago I learned this with a Filton Foam filter(yes the green ones). The K&N filter is consistant as long as it is serviced with their oil and will last almost forever. My only gripe with K&N is that they need to make one for our XR's. That and a double cheese burger and the fat man is happy! :clap: Later,

G

Discussion Starter · #19 · May 20, 2009

I my experience foam filters whether on cars or bikes are very restrictive. the cotton gauze filters like K&N are the best flowing followed by paper and foam are the most retirctive. the only reason to run a foam filter IMO is if you are subject to ver dusty conditions as they do the best job of filtering.

But if you want to make power the K&N type filter is the only way to go!

streettracker

· #20 · May 20, 2009

Scotty said:
Yep, cams and compression, but you need to feed them, air and juice.

K&N are big over here to but let me tell you a story.
Two weeks ago i actually pulled a K&N filter apart, i cant believe i have never done it before. It consists of four very thin sheets of cotton and has the fine mesh wire you can see on either side, the reason for the mesh is to stop it combusting if flame gets near it, the four sheets of thin cotton have a light coating of oil, thats it dude, no more no less.
If air is a problem a K&N filter ain't gonna solve it, it will have the same surface area as the Pipercross which i am sure flows just as well as the K&N.
If air is an issue the only way to find out is to run it on a dyno without the airbox, with the filter removed from the airbox so thre is no restriction or with a filter that has more surface area.

NRHS Sales said:
I my experience foam filters whether on cars or bikes are very restrictive. the cotton gauze filters like K&N are the best flowing followed by paper and foam are the most retirctive. the only reason to run a foam filter IMO is if you are subject to ver dusty conditions as they do the best job of filtering.

But if you want to make power the K&N type filter is the only way to go!

Couple of comments here - I first started selling and using K&N filters in the 1970's and they always told me that the wire screen was to hold it together, not as flame suppression. Not that it really matters
If you don't think that K&N will out perform foam as far as dirt goes, head to Baja and see that more guys run K&N than any other filter (Been there, done that, got the trophy's to prove it)
As for the photo above, what can you tell me about that? Not only is the air filter interesting, but so is the step header. Any info?

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