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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Some of you may have seen my previous posts that have mentioned this fuel controller in passing. Well, here are the details.
First I will say that I work for PerTronix Performance. We have been in the Automotive Electronic Aftermarket business for over 40 years. Our core business for many years was Electronic Ignitions and for the past 10 years we have also been in the Exhaust Header business after acquiring a couple of 50 year old exhaust companies.
Last year I worked with Rick Dobeck who was the original founder, inventor and owner of DynaJet. Rick sold the company years ago and became bored and started developing Fuel Controllers again. His original Techlusion TFI is still well regarded by many. The next generation of technology is what we incorporated into out Patriot Top Fueler. This Fueler is a Load Based unit that is Plug N Play and is completely adjustable by the end user with no computer or downloading necessary. Here it is installed on my XR.


The Top Fueler plugs into the original Harley Wiring harness using OE plugs at the injectors and the O2 sensors. There is also a ground wire that is connected to the battery or the frame.
In stock form the XR ECU runs in a closed loop mode during idle, cruise and mild acceleration and relies on the O2 sensors to hold the fuel at approx. 14.7 A/F. Under hard acceleration and wide open throttle the ECU switches to open loop and uses pre programmed factors to richen the mixture . The main reason for the closed loop operation is to meet emissions standards. The Top Fueler sends it's own signal to the O2 sensor input of the ECU so that the ECU thinks it is seeing that lean 14.7 all the time. By doing this, the Fueler can then add fuel as necessary to obtain a more optimum A/F for greater power and cooler running.
Simple membrane buttons on the front of the controller allow the owner to modify the preset map that I program in. You have 6 modes that can be controlled; Idle/Cruise, Acceleration, Wide Open Throttle, Deceleration, Acceleration Load (when it transitions from Cruise to Acell), Wide Open Load (When it transitions to wide open throttle mode). Colored LED lights tell you what setting you have and are modifying to. All of this can be done on the bike. You can go for seat of the pants and plug readings OR put it on a Dyno. The set up that comes pre programmed will be very close for most.
This unit is NOT made to replace high end products like SEST, Thundermax, or even Power Commander. It is designed for the average XR owner that is going to change pipes and air cleaner, maybe cams if anyone comes up with something better than stock. We feel it is Superior to the Fi2000, Fuel Pak, and other similar types. Unlike the XiED's this is not a preset voltage change to the O2 sensor that only works in closed loop mode, but real time adjusting of the mixture based on pre set parameters combined with load sensing from ECU. It also modifys the Open Loop fuel mixture. These are made in the USA and they normally sell for $299.95 but I will sell them direct to members of this forum for $250.00 including shipping if you contact me direct.
Sorry this is so long, but I thought some of you might be interested in this product. Feel free to ask any questions, Thanks, Don
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Don,
Have you done any Dyno work with it yet?
Yes I have, Glad you asked!
ALL Stock the bike made 82.1 HP at 6750rpm and 70.7 Ft Lbs at 3650rpm
Adding the Fueler straight out of the box (IE; no tuning) the peak HP went up by only about 1HP and the same with the torque BUT from 2500 to 3500 it picked up an average of 4 ft lbs and from 5500 to 6600 and average of 3 HP.
I then started to play with the fuel values a little bit more and ended up with an increase of 5 ft. lbs and 6 HP.
Additionally the lean surge that so many here talk about in the 3000 rpm range is GONE.
Also the time to HP decreased by about a second, meaning that it was accelerating faster.
I also tested the bike with the stock mufflers drilled which would be closer to an aftermarket pipe. With the stock ECU (no fueler) the bike actually LOST power from 2700 all the way to 5700; as much as 5 ft lbs at 3200.
With the Top Fueler hooked back up we gained an average of 6 ft. lbs and 7-8 HP over the entire rpm range! Remember this is still stock head pipes, drilled stock mufflers and a stock air cleaner.

I am working with a major Harley Magazine right now to arrange a pipe comparison on the XR. I should know more about this in a week or two. If it comes together it will be exciting! Stay Tuned, Film at Eleven
 
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Thanks for this opportunity to learn about and purchase the product Don. Please don't be shy to try to sell it to us, really. I'd like to here more about all of the pro's and con's from you and others. You might do well with a chart: cannot format it correctly, sorry

Closed Loop Open Loop Adjustable ECU Learning Modest Cost

Patriot: X X X

Xieds: X X

Thundermax X X X
 

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Would you guess that using something like the Universal Supertrapps and this device that you would see gains about like you did with the drilled mufflers?
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Another interesting aspect of this testing was the A/F readings;
In stock form during closed loop operation (Idle, Cruise) the A/F was around 14.5 to 14.7 as we expected. It started to fatten up as it went to Open Loop operation ending up and 13.4 from about 6000 rpm on, which is getting close to ideal! the ugliest part was a 18.3 reading when the throttle was whacked open at 2500 rpm :censored:

With the Top Fueler, when the throttle was whacked open we saw about 13.7. The closed loop range averaged about 13.5 and Open loop ranged from 12.5 to 12.7 which is right where Harley's like to make power.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Thanks for this opportunity to learn about and purchase the product Don. Please don't be shy to try to sell it to us, really. I'd like to here more about all of the pro's and con's from you and others. You might do well with a chart: cannot format it correctly, sorry

Closed Loop Open Loop Adjustable ECU Learning Modest Cost

Patriot: X X X

Xieds: X X

Thundermax X X X
You won't get a hard sell from me on this as to be honest it is a very small market for us that we are just kind of dabbling in. We bought a company that had a line of Harley Pipes (www.patriotpipes.com) and did this as a companion sale. Mainly because I wanted to play with it.
My OPINION is there are two needs in the market place. One for a relatively simple (for the owner) unit like this for guys that are doing exhaust and air filter and the other for guys who are experimenting a bit further or racing. For the second set of owners that market is cover by units like the SEST, Power Commander (If they get it all sorted for the XR), Thundermax. For the other guys with mild mods there is our unit, The V&H FuelPak (you can read my comments about that in the Fuel pak thread) the Powerizer (I don't know enough about it to say anything except it looks like it should be decent from what I have read), the DynaTek F.I. (I had two of these fail on me, which is what made me look into doing our own).
As for the XiED's I personally don't think there is any real world benfit and would spend a little more for a real fueler.

Would you guess that using something like the Universal Supertrapps and this device that you would see gains about like you did with the drilled mufflers?
I would think that you will get slightly better gains with the Supertrapps and a properly adjusted Fueler over the drilled mufflers.
 

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Don
When I had my '05 XL1200R I had it set up with se cams, 42mm flatslide, head work and such. To get it to actually run well without carb farts I resorted the the DynaTech TC88 module with the Turbota maps which worked well.
The XR doesn't display such ill manners but i can't help but wonder, since your fueler doesn't allow timing adjustment do you consider that a significant drawback?
FWIW, I intend to do the exhaust, the Supertrapps will be where I stop if they work well, probably a better air filter and maybe the scoop.
 

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My OPINION is there are two needs in the market place. One for a relatively simple (for the owner) unit like this for guys that are doing exhaust and air filter and the other for guys who are experimenting a bit further or racing. For the second set of owners that market is cover by units like the SEST, Power Commander (If they get it all sorted for the XR), Thundermax. For the other guys with mild mods there is our unit, The V&H FuelPak (you can read my comments about that in the Fuel pak thread) the Powerizer (I don't know enough about it to say anything except it looks like it should be decent from what I have read), the DynaTek F.I. (I had two of these fail on me, which is what made me look into doing our own).
+1 :)

This would appear to be the same basic unit as the other TFi units on the market that are badged by the individual distributors, such as Kitek and Free Spirits TFi (as well as Techlusion of course).

These do exactly what Streettracker says and are great for street riders who just want to richen up their bikes when changing pipes and filter. The only real difference between these units and the Powerizer is that the Remus unit adjusts itself rather than having user input buttons.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Don
When I had my '05 XL1200R I had it set up with se cams, 42mm flatslide, head work and such. To get it to actually run well without carb farts I resorted the the DynaTech TC88 module with the Turbota maps which worked well.
The XR doesn't display such ill manners but i can't help but wonder, since your fueler doesn't allow timing adjustment do you consider that a significant drawback?
FWIW, I intend to do the exhaust, the Supertrapps will be where I stop if they work well, probably a better air filter and maybe the scoop.
The timing on the XR's seems to be pretty aggressive to start with, witness those that have actually retarded some timing as part of their tuning process. From my experience so far, for a pipe and air filter change timing mods aren't really necessary. Could you possibly gain a little more? Maybe, but unless you are going to do heads, cams , compression I doubt that the more expensive tuners will gain much, if anything, that you could feel.
+1 :)

This would appear to be the same basic unit as the other TFi units on the market that are badged by the individual distributors, such as Kitek and Free Spirits TFi (as well as Techlusion of course).
You sir are correct in that it is basically the same as what they private label for others in the Gen III units. The Free Spirits unit that you offer appears to be the same base unit, not familiar with Kitek. Techlusion does not sell the Gen III units directly (at least in the states) only the original TFi unit which is quite a bit different.
These do exactly what Streettracker says and are great for street riders who just want to richen up their bikes when changing pipes and filter. The only real difference between these units and the Powerizer is that the Remus unit adjusts itself rather than having user input buttons.
I'm not sure how the Powerizer adjusts itself if it runs in closed loop and uses the stock O2 sensors. I may have to buy one and tear it open in our lab to see what trickery they might be using. Unless someone can explain the technology that they are using to override the stock sensors.

One other nice thing about this unit, if for what ever reason it should fail in service, the bike will revert back to stock running, unlike many others (including the 2 DynaTek F.I.'s that left me stranded with a non running Street Glide).
 

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Don, I agree with you, I want a simple fueler that will compensate for pipes and air cleaner changes. I am still not completely happy with the X14ieds. I still have a bit of a stumble just off idle, constant throttle or roll-on is good. Does yours enter new values or change existing values in the bikes fuel mapping. My bike being Canadian has slightly different mapping than yours. Any chance you will be setting up yours with the Supertrapp slip-ons. I am running them with 8 discs and open end caps. Thanks. Chow Don
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Don, I agree with you, I want a simple fueler that will compensate for pipes and air cleaner changes. I am still not completely happy with the X14ieds. I still have a bit of a stumble just off idle, constant throttle or roll-on is good. Does yours enter new values or change existing values in the bikes fuel mapping. My bike being Canadian has slightly different mapping than yours. Any chance you will be setting up yours with the Supertrapp slip-ons. I am running them with 8 discs and open end caps. Thanks. Chow Don
Don, (great name by the way) Our Fueler adds to the existing values regardless of what they are. You can then adjust our additions by very simple membrane type switches to add or subtract fro where I set them up. Although I don't have access to an XR with the Slip Ons, I think you will find that it is very easy to dial it in even without the use of a Dyno. It is absolutely true that time spent on a Dyno can (if the operator knows what he is doing) will get the optimum settings, you will be surprised at how close you can come seat of the pants, just like we used to do with jets in the Pre Historic Scotty Carb days.
 

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Not just Scotty, I like carbs too. I had my 03 XL1200 running spot on with a Dyno-jet kit. Hopefully we can master this F.I. too. How many different parameters are on the Patriot for the fueling mapping? You said you send it out with a base map for the XR. When you test the different pipes for the magazine will you be using the Patriot? So when you are "seat of the pants testing", do you road test the bike and then maybe for example turn up the mid-range parameter a couple of clicks and try it again? Thanks for your response, these may be dumb questions, but this is new to me.

Chow Don
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Not just Scotty, I like carbs too. I had my 03 XL1200 running spot on with a Dyno-jet kit. Hopefully we can master this F.I. too. How many different parameters are on the Patriot for the fueling mapping? You said you send it out with a base map for the XR. When you test the different pipes for the magazine will you be using the Patriot? So when you are "seat of the pants testing", do you road test the bike and then maybe for example turn up the mid-range parameter a couple of clicks and try it again? Thanks for your response, these may be dumb questions, but this is new to me.

Chow Don
Not dumb questions at all. Working back wards, yes if you are going to tune "Seat of the Pants" you can make a change, ride it, decide if you went the right way and repeat. No different than the way we used to do carbs before Dyno's were popular.
If the pipe comparo comes together, we will use the Top Fueler as we want to keep it to what the "Average" guy might have, not overly sophisticated tuning as the idea is to compare pipes, not tuners.
There area total of 6 different parameters - Idle and Cruise mode (think of this like the idle mixture and needle adjustments on a carb), Acceleration (like the accelerator pump, which you can't really adjust on a carb), Wide Open Throttle (main Jet size), Deceleration (can't do that on a carb), Transition from Cruise to Accel (like adjusting the accel pump action), Transition to W.O.T. (needle size and shape).
Even the simplest tuners give you way more control over your injection compared to what a Dyno Jet kit will do in a carb. The new generation Delphi injection really does work wonderfully and the only place a carb can even start to compare is during wide open throttle at a drag race.
Hope this helps
 

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just like we used to do with jets in the Pre Historic Scotty Carb days.
Small point to be made here.....If EFI is so good, why is a very large proportion of every HD forum you visit dedicated to EFI tuning, surely if it was all you say it is it would be pretty cut and dry. (just like changing jets on a carb)
Every where you go all you read about is EFI, what works and what doesnt, trouble is for every person that says a specific tuner works there is someone that says it doesent!

Like I've said before, aircooled motors are always gonna be a problem for EFI, if you look around different sites that are aimed at jap EFI bikes you dont find anywhere near the same issues with EFI.....liquid cooling helps EFI work much better as the peramiters that it has to work within are much more constant.

Anyhow, things are looking good for the carb conversion up to now, just a couple of things to iron out, lets just wait and see how it pans out.
Its quite possible there are gonna be one or two red faces around here, maybe even mine, but at least I'm willing to give it a go, and i will have no problem admiting to being wrong if it turns out that way....We'll see!
 

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I found the stock H.D. fuel injection to be flawless, with the stock bike. Its when you change things that problems arise. I would be happy to get it to run as smoothly as stock, with muffler and probably air filter changes.
 

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I found the stock H.D. fuel injection to be flawless, with the stock bike. Its when you change things that problems arise. I would be happy to get it to run as smoothly as stock, with muffler and probably air filter changes.
I want you to buy one of these and get it all set up for the Supertrapps so when mine come in you'll have it all figured out for us.:D:clap:
 
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