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Just Here
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
After looking at your suspension I figured that the front end needed some help, I bought a brand new set of forks and thought that HD robbed me, This thing is the same as a 2002 ~ 2005 dresser. I was surprised! I guess that HD needed a more lucrative profit margin so they designed this Look-A-Like inverted front end. Shame!

In one weeks time I will provide information on a drop in system that is adjustable. This will be our first offering done in stages as we Get-Er-Done. Pricing will be under $1K USD. Of course they are Öhlins. I do not have anything to do with this one. It will have external adjustments.

The second stage is the viability of offering a drop-in Öhlins Road and Track. The problem lies in machining in compression external valving. We can do this with no problem. Öhlins’s position on this is that they do not think it a good idea as the end user (you) would not like to send in your forks and have your bike on a jack. I guess that instant gratification thing.

For me to include lower billet fork ends (feet, lug, axle clamps, take your choice) ($850) + fork tubes ($300 + $300 for DLC or $200 Titanium nitride {TiN}), well, you can see where I am going with this. Of course we would have the opportunity to throw on some radial mounted 100 mm or 108 mm calipers with adjustable 300 mm rotors or 320 mm rotors. The drop-ins from Öhlins are $1,750 complete for other sport bikes currently. The lower external compression is the problem.

The third option is a set of Öhlins Road & Track forks that will fit into you set of trees. These will be XR 1200 specific and not a universal. More on that in the very near future.

I hope with all of my heart that we can develop components that will help you be faster while providing a ride like a dresser for you old but not admitting it you are old members.
 

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sweet!

Howard,
This sounds great! Keep us posted on what you come up with. [:)]
 

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certified tool
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After looking at your suspension I figured that the front end needed some help, I bought a brand new set of forks and thought that HD robbed me, This thing is the same as a 2002 ~ 2005 dresser. I was surprised! I guess that HD needed a more lucrative profit margin so they designed this Look-A-Like inverted front end. Shame!
:confused:
Are you saying the forks on the XR1200 are shared with the 2002 to 2005 Touring bikes?
And...the forks on the XR1200 look like they are inverted but, in fact, are not?
And what do you mean by saying you thought they had robbed you, was it the price or do you think they have stolen your designs or intellectual property?
 

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Metal cannot think, therefore it cannot be held re
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:confused:
Are you saying the forks on the XR1200 are shared with the 2002 to 2005 Touring bikes?
And...the forks on the XR1200 look like they are inverted but, in fact, are not?
And what do you mean by saying you thought they had robbed you, was it the price or do you think they have stolen your designs or intellectual property?
I'll chime in here, because i feel the same as Howard. H-D fitted a cartridge fork to the glides, but cheapened it by only having a cartridge in one fork leg. The XR is the same.
The XR inverted front end is a cosmetic "looks like a proper racing fork" cop out. We should all feel robbed. With the economy of scale that volume manufacturing brings, Harley could have upped the spec of both the forks and the rear shocks. We would probably only have had to pay another 5% of the bikes value if it had been done at the manufacturing stage, for a far better, road use, package. Instead of that we have to add, potentially, another 25-30% of the bikes purchase price to sort out what should have been done in the first place.
 

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Just Here
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209 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
:confused:
Are you saying the forks on the XR1200 are shared with the 2002 to 2005 Touring bikes?
And...the forks on the XR1200 look like they are inverted but, in fact, are not?
And what do you mean by saying you thought they had robbed you, was it the price or do you think they have stolen your designs or intellectual property?
>>> forks on the XR1200 are shared with the 2002 to 2005 Touring bikes
<<< Your forks, as stated by boz use the same concept as a 2002 ~ 2006 FL series Bagger. Spring and seat pipe (designed and brought to market in 1948) and a single cheap dampener with spring. For the money you spend for your bike HD should give you a front fork at least as advanced as a KYB found on GXSR's, Hayabusa's, and numerous other bikes.

>>> the forks on the XR1200 look like they are inverted but, in fact, are not?
<<< Just putting the sliders on top in place of the bottom (with an axle clamp) does not make a good fork. Hell, the axle clamp on your forks weigh as much as a brick and the fork tubes are hard chromed in place of a slippery coated material like Titanium nitride (TiN) or DLC. Stiction is the word here.


>>> you thought they had robbed you, was it the price
<<< Go buy a pair and than take them apart. Than take apart a GXSR fork of a < $10K Jap bike that is taxed to death by import duty. You can than tell me how you feel once you have investigated the subject. The question is now: do you feel robbed?



I have purchased this fork so I would know what I am talking about and bring to all of you my findings for your personal review and education. I always pose questions at inadiquicies than try to find a solution. The most importaint point of this post is what information you can take with you to improve your life.
 

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>>><<< Your forks, as stated by boz use the same concept as a 2002 ~ 2006 FL series Bagger. Spring and seat pipe (designed and brought to market in 1948) and a single cheap dampener with spring. For the money you spend for your bike HD should give you a front fork at least as advanced as a KYB found on GXSR's, Hayabusa's, and numerous other bikes.


<<< Just putting the sliders on top in place of the bottom (with an axle clamp) does not make a good fork. Hell, the axle clamp on your forks weigh as much as a brick and the fork tubes are hard chromed in place of a slippery coated material like Titanium nitride (TiN) or DLC. Stiction is the word here.

<<< Go buy a pair and than take them apart. Than take apart a GXSR fork of a < $10K Jap bike that is taxed to death by import duty. You can than tell me how you feel once you have investigated the subject. The question is now: do you feel robbed?



I have purchased this fork so I would know what I am talking about and bring to all of you my findings for your personal review and education. I always pose questions at inadiquicies than try to find a solution. The most importaint point of this post is what information you can take with you to improve your life.
Howard, well put!!! And in the Socratic method....very nice! I am very interested in your progress on these forks, I think there is so much room for improvement.
 

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>>> forks on the XR1200 are shared with the 2002 to 2005 Touring bikes
<<< Your forks, as stated by boz use the same concept as a 2002 ~ 2006 FL series Bagger. Spring and seat pipe (designed and brought to market in 1948) and a single cheap dampener with spring. For the money you spend for your bike HD should give you a front fork at least as advanced as a KYB found on GXSR's, Hayabusa's, and numerous other bikes. Aren't these forks made by one of the Japanese companies - Showa? And isn't it a cost containment issue for H-D? Do you think with the few forks that H-D will buy for the XR model the would get anywhere near the same price as the Japanese manufacturers get or their volume and the fact that they are "Domestic Partners"

>>> the forks on the XR1200 look like they are inverted but, in fact, are not?
<<< Just putting the sliders on top in place of the bottom (with an axle clamp) does not make a good fork. Hell, the axle clamp on your forks weigh as much as a brick and the fork tubes are hard chromed in place of a slippery coated material like Titanium nitride (TiN) or DLC. Stiction is the word here. But your statement that they look inverted but are not, is kind of misleading, they are indeed inverted and are stiffer against flexing than anything H-D has sold previously. Could they be a lot better? Of course. I am not discounting your findings or comments, only the political/cost facts that go along with it.


>>> you thought they had robbed you, was it the price
<<< Go buy a pair and than take them apart. Than take apart a GXSR fork of a < $10K Jap bike that is taxed to death by import duty. You can than tell me how you feel once you have investigated the subject. The question is now: do you feel robbed? The days of the high import tax are long gone and the current duty I believe is 4.4% on Japanese motorcycles. Remember that you are comparing apples and oranges. The wages and manufacturing costs in Japan are no where near what they are in this country and that is due to our expected standard of living for our workers. Maybe you should look more at BMW or Ducati for a cost ratio comparison.



I have purchased this fork so I would know what I am talking about and bring to all of you my findings for your personal review and education. I always pose questions at inadiquicies than try to find a solution. The most importaint point of this post is what information you can take with you to improve your life.
I think it's great that you have done this and we all would like better suspenders on our bikes but lets look at the reality of costs as it applies to H-D manufacturing and what we are really willing to spend for one of these bikes. How would they sell if they were say $14-15,000.00? Some of us would, but the majority would not, so for us there are guys like you that can offer an upgraded alternative and for that we thank you.
 

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Just Here
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
magoo Socratic method? Thank God for the I-Net as I had to look that one up. Here I thought the only skills I had in Greek was my X-girlfriend :asshole: when I was 21 years old! What a classy joint!

streettracker: I will answer your question. As stated earlier, a by far superior GXSR 1000 sells for less than the base MSRP: $12,899.00 price. It has a computer to control exhaust back pressure as well a many real great components. I, in no way am saying to purchase a Jap bike or ever ride one as I would not... I have never and do not think I would ever change.

The point I am making is the pricing, product developement, and value from Harley should be much more than what and you receive IMO. A import bike must pay a large import tax and yet the value is far superior to that of our HD's.

In closing let me reiterate:
1)- I will not buy an import but continue to ride HD's untill I am done for.
2)- I will still buy a HD based bike until I can not.
3)- I will question the technology and pricing structure untill I am done for.
4)- I personally think the MOCO should take the stock ticker off the front page and replace it with a slogan that the USA makes the 'Best Bike in the World" and does it with American Workers, on our shores, and disigned with our engineers producing value and substance over corporate greed.
 

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streettracker: I will answer your question. As stated earlier, a by far superior GXSR 1000 sells for less than the base MSRP: $12,899.00 price. It has a computer to control exhaust back pressure as well a many real great components. I, in no way am saying to purchase a Jap bike or ever ride one as I would not... I have never and do not think I would ever change.

The point I am making is the pricing, product developement, and value from Harley should be much more than what and you receive IMO. A import bike must pay a large import tax and yet the value is far superior to that of our HD's. BUT, the point I was making was that because of the costs of doing business in the USA you don't get as much value for your money compared to some other countries. AND the import tax on the Suzuki is only about $500.00, not really that large. We choose to live in the greatest country in the world but there are costs that come with that. As I said Harley could upgrade many components but it would end up as a $15,000 motorcycle and I'm sure the marketing dept would tell you that it wouldn't sell at that price point.

In closing let me reiterate:
1)- I will not buy an import but continue to ride HD's untill I am done for.
2)- I will still buy a HD based bike until I can not.
3)- I will question the technology and pricing structure untill I am done for.
4)- I personally think the MOCO should take the stock ticker off the front page and replace it with a slogan that the USA makes the 'Best Bike in the World" and does it with American Workers, on our shores, and disigned with our engineers producing value and substance over corporate greed.
Amen to your last comment
 
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As I said Harley could upgrade many components but it would end up as a $15,000 motorcycle and I'm sure the marketing dept would tell you that it wouldn't sell at that price point.
It would end up as a 18000 swiss franc bike here and I already think the price I paid is a bit to high for what I got...
If it was to be that expensive I would have never thought of buying it because you get WAY SUPERIOR V-Twins for that money...(KTM Superduke)..

I think the front forks are ok but once you add better rear shocks you really note that the front isn't the best..the stock rear dampers are just way crappier. They should have put some money there first...

I am interested in what's going to happen with forks..there are already a few european companys that offer a reworking of the oem forks even with DLC (WP Suspension per example. cost 800€).

Until then I think I'm already pretty fast with that heavy harley ;)
 

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Just Here
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
No I do not. Please be aware that this weekend past was 4 of July. I helped build a 106 ci for a forum member as he was down for vacation from Canada. I have also developed some shocks for the FL with Reservoirs, great valving for compression and rebound. They will be the absolute best shocks out there for a FL.

As far as the XR, nothing this week so far. Sweden is on a mandatory 3 week vacation which is country wide for manufacturing, so I have been told.
 

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Joe Mama!
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A worthy holiday to not do work.

Please keep us posted! I love where you are going with this. I want to do both ends soon, this is my only complaint, the crappy suspension they stuck us with. :clap:
 

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Carbon Fibre Hooligans
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I personally think the MOCO should take the stock ticker off the front page and replace it with a slogan that the USA makes the 'Best Bike in the World" and does it with American Workers, on our shores, and disigned with our engineers producing value and substance over corporate greed
Unfortunately advertising rules would not allow that, as it would be plainly false advertising. Not only would they be in hot water claiming any Harley to be the 'best bike in the world' (on what grounds could you judge that to be the truth?) but also there are a myriad of components made in Japan and other places that just happen to be assembled in the USA.
Lastly, if you really think that H-D are more concerned with value and substance than other manufacturers then you must be looking at a very different company to the one that I know!

Corporate greed has hindered development at H-D for years, which is one reason why they 'invented' the whole H-D lifestyle BS so they can sell you everything from baby clothes to chrome underwear.

They have relied so much on their 'core' followers and in marketing outdated engines in order to get every last dollar they can from old technology that they have ended up with an ageing customer base and no product to encourage any new riders into the brand.

If H-D wanted to fit decent forks to the XR1200 they had a world of choice available to them from Ohlins/Showa etc that are not only proven but probably cost only pennies more at the manufacturing stage to install. For instance, a Yamaha R6 costs less than the XR1200 but has massively better suspension spec all round (and better build quality too).

Instead, they gave us cheap and nasty rear shocks and a 'mock performance' front end. Not for value and substance, but to maximise profit.

Don't get me wrong. I love the XR1200 but there are many areas where cost cutting without any cost benefit to the customer is very apparent .
 

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Just Here
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
>>> ("Not only would they be in hot water claiming any Harley to be the 'best bike in the world' (on what grounds could you judge that to be the truth?) but also there are a myriad of components made in Japan and other places that just happen to be assembled in the USA.")

adrenalin-moto

My quote was "I personally think the MOCO should."

does it with:

  • American Workers,
  • on our shores,
  • designed with our engineers
  • producing value and substance over corporate greed
English is an exacting language so the above is what I said.
The first paragraph is what I would like to see and what exactly what is wrong with our country in a nut shell. My point of the rant. Traitors to our country and to the American people!

adrenalin-moto The rest of your post is either what I said, meant, or 100% agree on especially on the front end & shocks.

>>> "(they 'invented' the whole H-D lifestyle")

HD never invented the HD lifestyle, the HD riders of days past did. The buyers today who wanted to be the "Bad Boy" but could not/would not/never be one are now buying their way into it and play acting on Sunday afternoon or at rally's where they get dressed up into their HD costumes and sport fresh Tattoo's.

Look at the HD showroom "On Any Sunday" and watch em' get their oil changed while they converse with their "Chrome Consultant" and have the latest chrome gaudy jewelry installed on their land barge.

We have gone very far from the real HD Lifestyle of the self-sufficiency and freedom of the open road. Look at how many riders need to be tethered via bluetooth phone to their GPS. Think you are not one? How many even change your own oil? Guess I am back to making lots of friends with this statement.

>>> "(Lastly, if you really think that H-D are more concerned with value and substance than other manufacturers then you must be looking at a very different company to the one that I know!")

A little known fact is when the V-Rod Owners (when Eric Gray & myself were developing our/Penske HD shocks for the FX & FL series) were suing HD on their POS shocks they came to Penske to develop shocks than to provide them. The specifications were pure crap but Penske honored the deal. When the very last shock was delivered HD already reversed engineered them and were than made cheaper and with worse performance than the specified POS shock they started with from Penske.
 

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Carbon Fibre Hooligans
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A little known fact is when the V-Rod Owners (when Eric Gray & myself were developing our/Penske HD shocks for the FX & FL series) were suing HD on their POS shocks they came to Penske to develop shocks than to provide them. The specifications were pure crap but Penske honored the deal. When the very last shock was delivered HD already reversed engineered them and were than made cheaper and with worse performance than the specified POS shock they started with from Penske.
Hi Howard,
I heard a similar story a few years back about some Buell 'clip on handlebar' kits for the tube frame bikes. Buell approached Crossroads Performance with a design to make a set of bars that clamped to a flat plate that mounted across the top of the top triple tree. The Buell design brief specified 1" diameter bars throughout the length, even where they bolted to the top plate (two bolts went through the bar into a threaded plate). Mark at Crossroads pointed out that he would prefer to use 1 1/4" bars to give extra strength to the mounting area, but the designers insisted on 1".
The result was a much publicised recall notice on all clip on bar kits following a couple of scary breakages.

Crossroads continued to make their own kits using 1 1/4" bar and to date have not suffeed a single failure.

The cost difference to Buell would have been minimal, but the end result could have been fatal.
 

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Just Here
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209 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 ·
07-09-09 update

The Ohlins cartridge is finished and sitting right next to my brand new set of forks. Compression and rebound is adjustable. Photos soon to follow. Pricing should and will be a pair of bills under a grand + shipping and installation.

A brand new R&T set up that is direct bolt up is not far behind. Will be available with both the lug mount and radial 108 mm bolt hole mount. You can use any 2005 ~ current GXSR calipers or for easy mounting, just throw on a set of M-4 Brembo mono-blocks, bolt em' up and go. These babies come with free Banjo bolts and temperature stickers. Want to move up to 320 mm rotors all it takes is a set of spacers ....and bam - you are done! The pricing on these calipers has plummeted lately to a unbelievable give a way price of under $999! (each) Do a search online for the best pricing.
 

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Just Here
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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
New preview FL suspension.

When you guys get too slow and need to purchase a rolling couch to spend the rest of your days smelling the grass grow (but not on top of you) I will be ready for you, Several months in development and you guys are the first to see the new Ohlins FL shocks for the Baggers. I know you guys have no interest in them but I hope you can appropriate the concept. Top of the line compression valving in external reservoirs and rebound in the shaft. No room for external hydraulic spring pre-load adjusters. MSRP is around $1,700/pair. This is my own project with the help of Mike H, David B, and Magnus of Sweden who are sharing the vision.

Great suspension for a platform that is ignored by suspension makers. We are also working on drop in cartridges with the same externally adjustable compression, rebound, and spring pre-load. This is for your amusement only.
 

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Sweet!

Howard, you are a creative guy! Those would be nice on a bagger.

I'm more interested in bolt on wavey, lightweight disc's for the front brakes. Storz has some now, almost $900, and they require an adapter to relocate the calipers.....

Somebody has just got to do a direct bolt on replacement of these boat anchor rotors with floating discs in a nice carrier....:pinch:
 
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