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I'm still alive though I barely feel like it....and no, the bathroom is not finished :mad: but FastBilly threatened me if I didn't post up...so here's the deal.

Before I took the bike for the sert and dynotune I decided to drill an 1 1/2 inch hole in the end of my supertrapps (that's another story I'll post soon)....so the final configuration is: Stock headers, Supertrapps, 8 discs per, 1 1/2 inch holes, Pipercross, and Adrenalin airbox.

Here is the AFR table.



You can see the initial runs (blue line) were all over the place....crazy lean off idle, then rich through mid range, then lean again up top.


Final HP/Torque runs....



I picked up HP and torque across the RPM range, the biggest gains coming right where I wanted them....right around 4,000 rpm. In the footnotes you can see the temp was pretty warm by the final run, 96 degrees....typical of the weather down here....

Oh, at the start of the process I gave the tech a list of things I wanted (thankyou Phaed) and on that list was raising the rev limiter to 7400 rpm. You can see from the dyno sheets it wasn't changed. When I brought this up the tech advised me against it, telling me all about how it was going to ruin my motor. When he finished his explaination I told him I understood and told him I wanted it done anyway. He said okeydokey and went back in and raised the limiter...:whistling:...

I've only spent a few minutes on it since the work was done....there is no startleing difference from before the tune...the biggest thing is that it does everything a little better...it's smoother from takeoff, it pulls a little harder, it maintains a steady speed much better, and is much more responsive....and it sounds less burblely, you know what I mean?

I've got to take the tech a disc so he can download all of my data files and my final tune. I'll post the map if possible.

There is stuff I didn't find out (I was in a hurry to get out of there when we were finally done) like what gear the power runs were done in....but I will collect that info shortly...

now that shoe molding in the bathroom is calling my name.....gotta get back to it....anyone who's sent me an email or a pm in the past week or so I will try to get to them all tonight....:clap:
 

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Admin, Good to see Magoo's dyno sheets. Raising the revlimiter to 7400 is no danger to the engine as the same configuration turns 8000 for Buell. The power stops around the stock redline due to cams and or the airflow. I raised my revlimiter too to 7400 for overrun into corners if need be but I hardly ever have to go there. If you're nearing 7000 rpm and want more just shift. If it's top end you seek just tuck in. As with by bike the tougue in the 3-5000 range is almost as much as the 1000cc sport bikes and twice as much as a 600. Magoo's supertrap silencers and my QD pipe are designed to make torque. Torque rules on a heavy bike with a heavy rider, ask the 600's on a tight road. Hey Admin, tell Magoo that it is easier to rub your neck and write a check for home repairs than it is to save all this money. I know he's tight, but oh well, think of the fun it is to make motor noises while doing shoe moulding. Screw that bring me my check book and a beer. About to go to Hooters on my motorcycle! :D Later,
 

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I'm still alive though I barely feel like it....and no, the bathroom is not finished :mad: but FastBilly threatened me if I didn't post up...so here's the deal.

Before I took the bike for the sert and dynotune I decided to drill an 1 1/2 inch hole in the end of my supertrapps (that's another story I'll post soon)....so the final configuration is: Stock headers, Supertrapps, 8 discs per, 1 1/2 inch holes, Pipercross, and Adrenalin airbox.

Here is the AFR table.



You can see the initial runs (blue line) were all over the place....crazy lean off idle, then rich through mid range, then lean again up top.


Final HP/Torque runs....



I picked up HP and torque across the RPM range, the biggest gains coming right where I wanted them....right around 4,000 rpm. In the footnotes you can see the temp was pretty warm by the final run, 96 degrees....typical of the weather down here....

Oh, at the start of the process I gave the tech a list of things I wanted (thankyou Phaed) and on that list was raising the rev limiter to 7400 rpm. You can see from the dyno sheets it wasn't changed. When I brought this up the tech advised me against it, telling me all about how it was going to ruin my motor. When he finished his explaination I told him I understood and told him I wanted it done anyway. He said okeydokey and went back in and raised the limiter...:whistling:...

I've only spent a few minutes on it since the work was done....there is no startleing difference from before the tune...the biggest thing is that it does everything a little better...it's smoother from takeoff, it pulls a little harder, it maintains a steady speed much better, and is much more responsive....and it sounds less burblely, you know what I mean?

I've got to take the tech a disc so he can download all of my data files and my final tune. I'll post the map if possible.

There is stuff I didn't find out (I was in a hurry to get out of there when we were finally done) like what gear the power runs were done in....but I will collect that info shortly...

now that shoe molding in the bathroom is calling my name.....gotta get back to it....anyone who's sent me an email or a pm in the past week or so I will try to get to them all tonight....:clap:
Hi Magoo, looks like you have pretty good gains right across the board. I have a few questions. I assume that initial AFR run was without your Xieds. When they tuned your bike did they try to get that AFR line around 13 or is that just the result of tuning for HP/torque? Below 13 is rich, right? Does your Screaming Eagle Tuner stay on the bike or is it removed? Could your parameters be applied to another bike with similar mods with good results. If the tuner is removed, could it be applied to another bike? Thanks, hope everything came out all right in your bathroom.

Chow Don
 

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Don, I guess the shoe moulding god still has Magoo firmly in her grasp. I believe he removed the Xied's before the SEST install. The exaust readings allow you to tune each cylinder for the best mixture and HP an torque. The race tuner is plugged into the stock ECM on the bike, once you make adjustments the adapter goes back in the box. It is keyed to your bike so switching bikes will not work. If any changes need to be made you'll need your adapter box to make them. Hope this info helps. Wanna go to Mobile and help save Magoo? We could do a ride but the roads there have no turns so I guess it'll be pasadina. :pinch: Later,
 

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Billy, thanks for being Magoo fill-in. Another question, could his numbers be entered into another tuner on another bike (lets say mine) with similar mods, and achieve good results. Magoo could sell this data and recoup some of his money spent on the dyno, or buy some more shoe moulding.

Chow Don
 
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Billy, thanks for being Magoo fill-in. Another question, could his numbers be entered into another tuner on another bike (lets say mine) with similar mods, and achieve good results. Magoo could sell this data and recoup some of his money spent on the dyno, or buy some more shoe moulding.

Chow Don
Generally the answer to this is no.

There is generally enough variance in the heads, intake flow, injector flow, fuel pressure, etc in a production Harley that the VEs between two bikes with similar mods generally are far enough apart that the tune for one will not be perfect for another.

Even though HD for instance may not peak performance in the stock map through timing and AFR selection, if all stock bikes were the same the VE's generated for one should be perfect for all of the same model and configuration. Where Tuners spend most of their time is in tuning the VE tables to match the specific bike.

But you know, the real answer has to do with expectations. A lot of guys want perfection and absolute peak numbers out of a tune. If a rider is willing to live with "good results" in using somebody else's map for his "identical" build, then another rider's map can actually be a very good starting point - hence the sub-forum here for map posts. It's just that using a shared map, kind of like using XiEds, may not provide identical results when loaded into another bike...
 
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And re the XiEDs, although they wouldn't be needed (or generally wanted) with a tuned bike, their effect would not be seen in the AFR lines on a peak HP pull. They only come into play in the closed loop region of the map, and the peak HP/TQ pull is made in the open loop region of the map at WOT.

((Ed note: In retrospect, putting XiEDs on a tuned bike could possibly affect the WOT fuel delivery because the XiEDs cause the ECM to create closed loop fuel offsets that are translated to the open loop operation. Generally on a tuned bike the closed loop area of operation is reduced to the point that any offsets created in the lower kpa regions of the fuel map shouldn't affect the AFR at WOT, but depending upon how the Tuner set up the AFR table, there is a possibility.))
 

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Don, I hope you didn't cause major damage my telling Magoo he could sell his EFI maps. I'm picturing Magoo with an a frame sign over his head wandering the streets trying to market his maps reading Map Your XR for Less on the front and Blew By You on the back. This could be a big problem because it will cause him to miss more riding and end up a homeless guy with no market. Look at what you've done Don! Never mind Magoo is too lazy to wander, no harm done. :D Later,
 

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And re the XiEDs, although they wouldn't be needed (or generally wanted) with a tuned bike, their effect would not be seen in the AFR lines on a peak HP pull. They only come into play in the closed loop region of the map and the peak HP/TQ pull is made in the open loop region of the map at WOT.
Phaedrus,
I am not too familiar with this stuff...(disclaimer for dumb question) ...so you are saying the lean area running from 3300 rpm to 5000 rpm is pure open loop. I was thinking that the system was trying to achieve 14.6 in closed loop in this area.
If that is not closed loop then it is terrible mapping on HD's part and easy to see why you can get 10% hp increase in this area with a SERT or similar.

The torque/hp dip at 2600 rpm appears larger than a lot of other dynos seen for the XR. Wonder why?

Cheers
Pete
 
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Phaedrus,
I am not too familiar with this stuff...(disclaimer for dumb question) ...so you are saying the lean area running from 3300 rpm to 5000 rpm is pure open loop. I was thinking that the system was trying to achieve 14.6 in closed loop in this area.
If that is not closed loop then it is terrible mapping on HD's part and easy to see why you can get 10% hp increase in this area with a SERT or similar.

The torque/hp dip at 2600 rpm appears larger than a lot of other dynos seen for the XR. Wonder why?

Cheers
Pete
Yes, in a peak HP/TQ dyno run the map is purely in Open Loop. Generally it is using the 100 kPa column of the AFR map, which in an HD map appears to be set at an AFR of about 12.5. What calibrates the AFR to the bike though are the VE tables. With a pipe and air cleaner change the VE tables may need significant tuning to make them accurate for the bike. The Tuner would have calibrated the VE tables and then apparently set an AFR of about 13 at 100kPa in the map.

Using purely the AFR line as an indicator, that pipe seems to be flowing less air than stock below 3000 rpm, and more air than stock from 3k to 5k rpm.
 

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Yes, in a peak HP/TQ dyno run the map is purely in Open Loop. Generally it is using the 100 kPa column of the AFR map, which in an HD map appears to be set at an AFR of about 12.5. What calibrates the AFR to the bike though are the VE tables. With a pipe and air cleaner change the VE tables may need significant tuning to make them accurate for the bike. The Tuner would have calibrated the VE tables and then apparently set an AFR of about 13 at 100kPa in the map.

Using purely the AFR line as an indicator, that pipe seems to be flowing less air than stock below 3000 rpm, and more air than stock from 3k to 5k rpm.
Is it possible to design the pipe (or any pipe) so that it will flow better than stock both below 3k and at higher? Or is it more of a choice between one or the other.
I'm going to use these Supertrapps on mine along with one of Don's fuelers (assuming the Supertrapps ever get off backorder) and would be curious if you see room for improvement in amount of discs added or taken away.
 

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Phaedrus, good morning, couple more questions. Does a tune like Magoo got, not affect or change the closed loop area. This is where my bike stumbles. Steve at Nightrider told me the Xieds affect the mixture up to about 5,000. Would all XRs from the factory (talking US bikes) not have the same mapping? I was told that the mapping on my bike was different, being a Canadian model. Thanks.

Chow Don
 
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Phaedrus, good morning, couple more questions. Does a tune like Magoo got, not affect or change the closed loop area. This is where my bike stumbles. Steve at Nightrider told me the Xieds affect the mixture up to about 5,000. Would all XRs from the factory (talking US bikes) not have the same mapping? I was told that the mapping on my bike was different, being a Canadian model. Thanks.

Chow Don
Don - The only way to know what the Tuner did to Magoo's bike is to look at the map, but generally in a custom tune the Tuner will modify the AFR table to peak performance. One might expect that the Closed Loop region of his map has been reduced, to give the bike more fuel to improve throttle response.

i don't know about Canadian mapping. Could the stock overseas mapping be different than US? I guess so, especially with the Japanese bikes and the European bikes that have stricter noise constraints. I wouldn't expect the Canadian mapping to be different than the US, but I really have no idea. If international maps are different, the most likely place would be in the VE mapping to allow for changes due to the intake flap and in the timing due to expected fuel differences, rather than in the AFR targets. But that's just a guess...
 

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Don - The only way to know what the Tuner did to Magoo's bike is to look at the map, but generally in a custom Tune the Tuner will modify the AFR table to peak performance. One might expect that the Closed Loop region of his map has been reduced, to give the bike more fuel to improve throttle response.

i don't know about Canadian mapping. Could the stock overseas mapping be different than US? I guess so, especially with the Japanese bikes and the European bikes that have stricter noise constraints. I wouldn't expect the Canadian mapping to be different than the US, but I really have no idea. If international maps are different, the most likely place would be in the VE mapping to allow for changes due to the intake flap and in the timing due to expected fuel differences, rather than in the AFR targets. But that's just a guess...
Wouldn't the over seas mapping be different because of the catalytic converters? Steve at Nightrider said my mapping was different, being a Canadian bike. I have never had that 3,000 rpm flat spot you guys complain about. Something to think about. Chow Don
 
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Wouldn't the over seas mapping be different because of the catalytic converters? Steve at Nightrider said my mapping was different, being a Canadian bike. I have never had that 3,000 rpm flat spot you guys complain about. Something to think about. Chow Don
It's hard to tell Don. Noone outside of HD appears to know what's in the stock maps for all of the markets.

Cats would just be one more item that could alter the air flow. But, since the closed loop portions of the map will adjust themselves, HD wouldn't have to do different VE mapping for most of the map. If there is "significant" (in HD's opinion) airflow difference on bikes with cats, they could have mapped the VEs differently for those bikes.

Taking the Super Tuner as a for instance, there only appears to be one starting base map for tuning all of the XR1200s. (Somebody outside the US can chime in, if you show a different part number for the Super Tuner internationally.) I'd expect that HD paid more attention to handling the intake valve in the overseas bikes, than anything else. But this is really beyond me...
 
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