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Warning! Fat people are harder to kidnap.
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
As the weather becomes hotter in the summer in the Southeast USA I have noticed a change in how my bike runs and performs. I have always been a big supporter of NGK spark plugs and have used them for years. The Iridium plugs have proven themselves in many years of riding and racing and nobodys sparkplugs offer better throttle responce.

After installing my SEST and tuning for the pipe as the weather warmed I was noticing detonation at the top of the rev range. I had my SE tech pull back the timing a couple of degrees as the weather warmed up. No proplems. As it got warmer the detonation returned. I noticed Matt from Adrenalin noted that they were running dcpr9eix plugs in the British area with great success. I was running dcpr7eix which are two stages hotter. I orderd a set of the "9"'s from a local supplier and still had detonation. The plug reading was fine so it wasn't the mixture.

I asked my Harley dealer service manager and he offered this suggestion: Put in the Harley 10r12a spark plugs. What the hell? A pair of the Harley plus are only $6.00 and change. What a differance! No more detonation and it pulls harder to red line. There is a very small throttle responce decrease put the bike runs better and the pop when down shifting is almost gone and when blipping the throttle as you down shift is much better. I know Harley plugs are made by Champion and I haven't been a fan of Champions for decades.

Putting my limited brain power to work I wondered why this did away with my detonation because the plugs read fine as did the NGK. The NGK ground electrode was white on both heat ranges and the Harley plug electrode was grey. Is it possible that the NGK power electrode was staying hot enough to cause detonation?. The Iridium positve electrode is as thin as a piece wire. The service manager told me he ran the colder Harley plug in his build up big bike with great results because the stock plugs were too hot. I'm guessing that the positive electrode is glowing like a glow plug causing the detonation at high rpm due to the higher compression ratio combined with the air/oil cooling to cause the detonation. Need some larger motorheads to study this and see if that is the reason. I got mt s**t together once and could'nt lift it. :whistling: Later,
 

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Carbon Fibre Hooligans
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569 Posts
The H-D 10R12a plugs are the same as fitted to the Buell range, and should be standard fitment for the XR1200. They are the same heat range as the NGK DCPR9 iridium plugs, but have a larger (thicker) electrode than the NGK items.

The 10R12 plugs will foul up much more easily than the NGK's (Probably because of the electrode size?) and we have found that the NGKs are much more reliable and superior in performance to standard H-D plugs (both 10R12 or 6R12) over the last 10 years of use.

We have found that Splitfires are rubbish and a gimmicky waste of money, and haven't had much joy with Accel plugs (although we use their 300+ leads all the time).

We tried some Brisk plugs a couple of years ago, that are supposed to be the absolute dogs danglies in the sprk plug world. These use a 'perimeter electrode' rather than the standard centre electrode and are supposed to give a much better and more complete spark. We found that they didn't perform anywhere near as well as the NGK though :(
 

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Warning! Fat people are harder to kidnap.
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Yeah Matt the splitfires are junk. Harley/Buell also offers a 10r12x that has a small positive electrode. The tech's at the Harley dealer said the 10r12a's ran better. They run better in my bike and with fuel injection and correct mixture fouling shouldn't be a problem. No more preignition is my goal. :innocent: Later,
 

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Premium Member
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FatBilly!

FB, just throw some glow plugs in there and you can start running diesel fuel.....sweet!:clap:
 

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Warning! Fat people are harder to kidnap.
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Magoo, I'll be running model airplane fuel because it smells good. Small problem, it costs $75.00 to go to the mail box! Beer thirty, gotta go. :scooter: Later,
 

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certified tool
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Me and some friends were coming back from a ride yesterday, we got on the interstate and I really nailed it... jesus christ!
Sounded like I was making popcorn:( I was concerned about the motor it was so bad.
It was 100 degrees F. though.
I think I'll try some 10r12a's in there for the summer.
 

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Warning! Fat people are harder to kidnap.
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
When it's 100 degrees and the engine is hot detonation is easy to cause on a air cooled engine. Hope the plugs help yours it did mine. :D Later,
 

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Carbon Fibre Hooligans
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569 Posts
Has anyone tried the NGK Iridiums yet?
I've had them in my XR1200 since the day after it was delivered, and in every Buell I have owned/raced since '98. I have been tempted by the claims of others but have always been disapointed and returned to the comfort of my NGK's.

I find them much better at resisting fouling, they stay exactly adjusted pretty much for ever, I have never suffered from detonation with them (but I always run Super Unleaded 98 Octane fuel rather than regular).

I cannot fault them at all :)

However.....Get the DCPR9 grade and not the 7, as these are far better for the XR and Buell motors that run hotter than the other XL engines.
 

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Warning! Fat people are harder to kidnap.
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Matt, I went to the NGK Iridium "9" and still got detonation on hot days. NGK's have the best throttle responce and never wear out. The Harley service manager told me about the 10r12a's and the detonation went away. Detonation only happened above 5,000 rpm on hot days. The mixture is correct and the timing was pulled back a couple of degrees but the pinging happened and the plug color was fine but the ground electrode was white on the NGK's and gray on the 10r12a's. Maybe the thin center electrode was too hot causing the pre-ignition. Don't know but had to get rid of the pinging. :pinch: Later,
 

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certified tool
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I've had them in my XR1200 since the day after it was delivered, and in every Buell I have owned/raced since '98. I have been tempted by the claims of others but have always been disapointed and returned to the comfort of my NGK's.

I find them much better at resisting fouling, they stay exactly adjusted pretty much for ever, I have never suffered from detonation with them (but I always run Super Unleaded 98 Octane fuel rather than regular).

I cannot fault them at all :)

However.....Get the DCPR9 grade and not the 7, as these are far better for the XR and Buell motors that run hotter than the other XL engines.
Do you ever get trouble codes with these plugs. Sometimes aftermarket plugs/wires do not allow ion sensing to work properly
 

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It aint no good locking the doors, when the madnes
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Matt, I went to the NGK Iridium "9" and still got detonation on hot days. NGK's have the best throttle responce and never wear out. The Harley service manager told me about the 10r12a's and the detonation went away. Detonation only happened above 5,000 rpm on hot days. The mixture is correct and the timing was pulled back a couple of degrees but the pinging happened and the plug color was fine but the ground electrode was white on the NGK's and gray on the 10r12a's. Maybe the thin center electrode was too hot causing the pre-ignition. Don't know but had to get rid of the pinging. :pinch: Later,
Dont ya just love EFI on an air cooled motor in a hot climate!

We wont get detonation like you're experiencing over there, we just dont have the heat issues.
I must admit i am a bit surprised with the oil cooled heads!!!

Then again i dont suppose they are gonna work much better in stop start traffic in high temps than non oil cooled heads.
Maybe you could get a small electric fan to attach to the oil cooler that you could turn when needed.

You know what i would do dont ya.. :D


Phedrus, how would the Thundermax and other auto tune units work as far as heat was concerned?
 
G

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Do you ever get trouble codes with these plugs. Sometimes aftermarket plugs/wires do not allow ion sensing to work properly
At least that's one problem we won't have to worry about on the XR, since it doesn't have ion sensing.
 

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certified tool
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That would explain why it kept detonating. I was expecting it to detonate a little and then pull some timing, like most other H-D's I ridden. So I stayed in it for a bit, just kept pingin until I let out of it.:mad:
 

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Carbon Fibre Hooligans
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569 Posts
One thing that we have found over the years with Buell engines is that they do not like low grade or low octane fuel. Running on 'regular' unleaded (93-95 Octane over here) caused some detonation problems and rough running. Changing to 'Super Unleaded' (98 Octane +) resolved the rough running issues completely.

For race use we ran Sunoco 109 Octane oxygenated fuel and it was brilliant, even with 12.5/1 compression ratio :) The only downsides are cost (it was GBP5.50 per litre, or around US$35 per gallon!) and having to carry a 5 gallon drum of the stuff around with you, so not recommended for touring ;)

One other thing I have changed on my XR are the plug leads. I run Accel 300+ 8mm leads and have used these for years. Do they perform better than stock? It is hard to say, but my feeling is that they do and in theory they should do. I have a set of Nology leads kicking about that I may try soon too.
 

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Warning! Fat people are harder to kidnap.
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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Always run Premium fuel in my bike but the octain rating is 93. I have run race gas, leaded Sunoco at 105 and unleaded Shell at 100 octain. No pinging with either of course but it's $8.00 a gallon and not available but in a couple of places. Damn! :nono: Later,
 

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Warning! Fat people are harder to kidnap.
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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Heat Sucks!

It seems I've been chasing the Detonation monster for awile now. Changing the plugs as posted before helped but as the heat set in it returned to a lessor degree. The pinging was between 5-7000 rpm. Looked at the plugs and they were lean top end. Everything else was fine just the top end. Damn!

When the QD pipe was put on the bike was tuned using the SEST and all was good it the world. Took it back to the dyno for the answer. First run and the proplem was easy to see. The fuel mixture was all over the board on the sniffer readings. The day we ran the original session it was cool weather in March. Only differance was the temp and the plugs. Settings were way off everywhere, low end, mid and top end. We leaned the bottom richened the top and the middle came around. Scotty (larger main, dropped the needle and reset the accelerator pump). Once the mixture was in check the bike ran better, cooler and no pinging.

Road this morning while it was cool and the bike was awesome. As the temp came up the bike ran good with no pinging. My Dyna was not as sensative to heat but it turned a bunch fewer RPM's. The XR is very sensative to mixture. I'm glad I had the set up that would allow retuning and my top compression ring is glad no more pinging for sure. It will be interesting to see how the performance changes whem the weather cools off a bit. May need to change the fuel injection map from winter to summer we'll see. Film @ 11:00 :clap:
 

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Keeping Them Flying
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183 Posts
The pinging was between 5-7000 rpm. Looked at the plugs and they were lean top end. Everything else was fine just the top end. Damn!
Mine started doing the same thing about 2 weeks ago. Mildly at 90 + ° more so at 95 + °. This last week has been 103° and it's terrible. The Harley dealers tried to sell me the "gold" plugs and the "platinum" plugs that are even better but couldn't tell me if the heat range was any cooler than the stock plugs. Champions and NGK weren't available, of course. Next I tried the shops of Oriental origins and all they had in stock are the NGK 7 and 8 heat range so I ordered the 9's which are only available in sets of 4 at 5.25 $ a piece. They should be here Tuesday.
The other problem I'm having locally is, finding a gas station that has individual filling hoses. Although I buy 93 octane, I may be getting up to a gallon of what ever the person before me bought and when I'm only putting in 2-3 gallons anyway the ratios are going to be wacked.
Thinking about putting a couple oz of Lucas octane booster when ever I fill up. Found this site usefull.
http://volvospeed.com/Reviews/octane_boosters.html
 
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