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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
What is the Air Fuel Ratio's "Sweet Spot"? It seems like I heard someone saying it was 12 something, but it is hard to search the threads for "12 something" and AFR is too short.

I was making some updates using the ThunderMax's Smart Link software about an hour ago, and I noticed the AFR Target seemed a little high (13.39).

Also, does anyone know what a good timing setting is when dialing in for torque? It says my Base Ignition Timing is 15°.

 

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It aint no good locking the doors, when the madnes
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12.8 - 13.2 is commonly seen as the ideal A/F ratio, so i wouldn't have thought that iis to far away for the T-Max to be looking for, as far as the timing side of things i think Boz would be more up to answering that.
 

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AFR in the SEST, TTS and Direct Link XR base maps varies beween 12.5 and 14.6. Timing varies between 15 and 45. All of this is dependent on rpm, throttle position, and MAP (engine load), as the engine's fuel and ignition requirements varies under different running conditions. Component changes, such as different exhaust systems, compression ratios, camshafts, head porting, etc, etc (as well as a stock bike) also benefit from changing many of these values when doing a bespoke tune.
Joe, a lot of this has already been dealt with on here. Have a look through some of Phaedrus's older posts. Phaedrus has also been experimenting with the Thundermax. I have no experience of it, but any particular engines and parts combinations timing and fuel demands will be the same, irrespective of the tuning device used.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I'll spend some time looking up Phaedrus' old posts this morning (you'd think I'd be working...).

I'm inclined, though, to try bumping the AFR down to 12.8 to see how the engine reacts.
 

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See PHAEDRUS we NEED you on this site Damnit! Come home Aunti Em is worried. Klick you heals together and say; XROG is GOOD! Say it over and over and you'll see. :cool: Later,
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I got a private message from ~The Phaedrus~ where he pointed out to me that though I can get in to where the AFR value is stored ...I can't change it. {ugh!} OK, now I feel stupid.
 

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Joe, i wouldn't have thought 13.9 was a bad set up for the T-Max as they most likely want to keep you within a good economy range and at the same time give the bike a decent amount of fuel so it performs a lot better than stock.
i fitted a T-Max i had bought on E-Bay along with some new pipes and Heavy Breather filter on a Fatbob a couple of weeks ago and the guy that owns the bike was over the moon with it compared to the stock set up, even i was impressed with the T-Max.

The big thing is all about just how far you want to go with tuning the bike, if you want a 100% spot on tune then you have to go to people like Boz or Dris who actually go into the full rev range of the bike and set everything up perfectly. The T-Max has got to have limits built into it as they can only set things up to settings that are pre-programed into the unit, and it looks like 13.9 is where its at, which sounds like a good enough setting for most aplications, your gonna run better and cooler than the stock set up and it is going to alter to suit any other mods you will do to the bike..
Like me with the carb, if i was going to get too involved in a 100% right through the rev range set up, i would need to be using a dyno, but i just aint into getting in that deep, a couple of runs every now and then is all i need to give me enough idea as to what is going on and where in the rev range its happening. As long as I'm feeling the right stuff happening under me I'm happy, that extra couple of HP aint going to be missed as long as i can make it pull long and hard through the torque band.

But yea, the T-Max seems to work pretty damn good from what i was seeing a couple of weeks ago. :)
 
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Joe, it's not that you can't change the AFR targets it's just that you can't change the targets through the screen that you posted a snapshot of (which is only watching the AFR as the bike warms up at idle), and the best way to change the AFR (and timing) is through Advanced mode. Since I always run Advanced mode, I don't remember whether you can get to the individual rpm pages for fine tuning the AFR and timing in the version you are running.

The key though is that the 13.4 AFR target that you were looking at is only the AFR target at idle (1024 rpm), at that engine temp (223 deg F), at zero throttle, while stationary. The TMax is fully mapped for AFR and timing across varying throttle and rpm combinations, similar to the values that Boz gave.

If you want to adjust your AFR or timing targets, the best way is on the individual "Air/Fuel-TPS @ rpm" or "Ignition Timing VS TPS" pages in the drop down list on the left side of the page. (Earlier versions of Smartlink did not show these pages in the Basic version.) But, again, that screen that you posted is only a shot of the conditions at idle while stationary, as you are calibrating your IAC stops. If the bike is idling fine, I'd suggest leaving the targets for idle alone. The mapping while you ride is a lot like Boz mentioned and it already should be set in the 12.8 range under heavy throttle and higher rpm, for the XR.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
OK, I think I am starting to see what's going on. This software takes some time to get used to.

I can see under the "Air/Fuel-TPS @ rpm" tree node that the Air/Fuel ratio does in fact change over the RPM range, and also depends on where the throttle position is.

It also looks like the version of the software that I have only has the ability to view the data - not change it.

I am inside right now without being "plugged into" the motorcycle, so this could change if I had an existing active link to the module.

I'd like to spend a dyno session with my laptop linked to the ThunderMax ECM so I can store data after each of the passes for analysis later. Trying to simulate how to do this, however, proves more difficult without an actual bike to be connected to.

I wonder if Zipper's has an emulator...?
 

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Phaedrus, can you do an individual tune with the T_Max, like Boz and Dris are able to do with their respective tuning software? and if so does the Auto-Tune then become redundant?
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Relax, Scotty. It's just me.

I don't think Zipper's TMax software will do this, though.

My hope was that I could tell the software, "Hey, you do a great job at creating maps for general use. Let me give you some more aggressive settings, and have you pump me out a map using that criteria."

I'm beginning to think now that I can do that - sort of! I would have to edit the map points for each RPM setting (about 20 discrete values) and at each throttle setting (about 66 discrete points). That's 1320 points to edit manually just to adjust the "Air/Fuel-TPS @ rpm" values. Ouch!

My hope was that making a global change to the AFR value would get the software to calibrate a more aggressive or softer map for me to run.

That may still be something that can be done, but I'm not sure how to get the software to do it ...without manually changing thousands of points. Maybe that's what Boz & Dris doo!
 
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Phaedrus, can do an individual tune with the T_Max, like Boz and Dris are able to do with their respective tuning software? and if so does the Auto-Tune then become redundant?
Yes a bike can be individually tuned with the TMax as with other software. The autotune function then continues to adjust fuel delivery for environmental and elevation differences. It also will generally even out AFR delivery between the targets more smoothly than can be done manually.

Also, if a map has been built for a configuration on one engine build, the autotune will ensure the same fuel delivery on other bikes with the same engine build regardless of fuel pump (pressure), fuel injector, core shift, and other variances that exist between seemingly "identical" bikes. And if one changes intake, exhaust or other components which affect air/fuel flow, the TMax will adjust the fuel flow to bring the bike back to the Tuner's targets with the altered air flow - without another trip back to the dyno.

Even with the TMax though, if you pick a new cam/compression combination that seriously alters the optimal timing mapping and for which a map has not yet been built, you'll probably need to spend time with a good Tuner to get the most out of the build. The nice thing is that the TMax will let a smart user tune most new engine combinations on the street. But for a lot of guys with special builds, its worth it to just put their bike into the hands of a Boz or Dris, no matter what ECM or tuning application they are running.
 

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Yes a bike can be individually tuned with the TMax as with other software. The autotune function then continues to adjust fuel delivery for environmental and elevation differences. It also will generally even out AFR delivery between the targets more smoothly than can be done manually.

Also, if a map has been built for a configuration on one engine build, the autotune will ensure the same fuel delivery on other bikes with the same engine build regardless of fuel pump (pressure), fuel injector, core shift, and other variances that exist between seemingly "identical" bikes. And if one changes intake, exhaust or other components which affect air/fuel flow, the TMax will adjust the fuel flow to bring the bike back to the Tuner's targets with the altered air flow - without another trip back to the dyno.

Even with the TMax though, if you pick a new cam/compression combination that seriously alters the optimal timing mapping and for which a map has not yet been built, you'll probably need to spend time with a good Tuner to get the most out of the build. The nice thing is that the TMax will let a smart user tune most new engine combinations on the street. But for a lot of guys with special builds, its worth it to just put their bike into the hands of a Boz or Dris, no matter what ECM or tuning application they are running.
Thats all good news then, as the guy i fitted the T-Max for is coming back early next year for some cams and capacity increase. That info means i can do the work without worrying about setting it up. I'll just do as i did last time, put in a base tune that is close to his set up and let the T-Max do its thing..

Thanks for that :)

As far as if you can do an individual tune with the T-Max, that was just curiosity, once again i thanks you :cool:
 
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Relax, Scotty. It's just me.

I don't think Zipper's TMax software will do this, though.

My hope was that I could tell the software, "Hey, you do a great job at creating maps for general use. Let me give you some more aggressive settings, and have you pump me out a map using that criteria."

I'm beginning to think now that I can do that - sort of! I would have to edit the map points for each RPM setting (about 20 discrete values) and at each throttle setting (about 66 discrete points). That's 1320 points to edit manually just to adjust the "Air/Fuel-TPS @ rpm" values. Ouch!

My hope was that making a global change to the AFR value would get the software to calibrate a more aggressive or softer map for me to run.

That may still be something that can be done, but I'm not sure how to get the software to do it ...without manually changing thousands of points. Maybe that's what Boz & Dris doo!
Joe, the graphical interface of the TMax will actually allow for some pretty quick changes when tuning. The manual will talk about how to move points and shoot lines to adjust the curves in blocks. Also, the timing can be shifted with some blanket changes. Again - BUT - this is exactly what a Tuner gets paid for - making smart adjustments to targets in specific ranges.

If you start making global changes you will probably find that you are shifting some fuel or timing targets that you really might rather not adjust.

The base map should not be all that bad. If you want to eek the last HP or ft-lb out of it you can get slightly more aggressive with the timing, but then be prepared to add fuel to keep down detonation and be ready to make more adjustments for summer heat. Unless you are racing or just like to tune, you likely won't gain much out of adjusting the targets for the XR map. And those of us who do tweak it, keep summer and winter maps in varying forms to ease off the timing when running in the heat on the street.

just a thought...
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
The base map is very good, P.

I'm just being greedy. It sounds, though, like I'd be hard pressed to tweak much more out of my engine.
 

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This thread is making my head hurt
just sayin'
Regards
Roy
Lol...makes a little blood come out my ears too :)

The impressive thing to me is these guys (Phaed, Boz, Dris, Scotty and many others) understand this stuff and can explain it in a manner we normal people can understand! And they share this shit out of just plain love for the sport...amazing....we are lucky to have these people :)

Thanks guys...I learn more everyday...
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Lol...makes a little blood come out my ears too :)

The impressive thing to me is these guys (Phaed, Boz, Dris, Scotty and many others) understand this stuff and can explain it in a manner we normal people can understand! And they share this shit out of just plain love for the sport...amazing....we are lucky to have these people :)

Thanks guys...I learn more everyday...
I'm ready to jump in and figure this stuff out, but it is hard to do with the manual that Zipper's puts out with the Smart Link software. I mean, it is a good manual, but it is clearly written for a motorcycle mechanic - all it says is what to do! By looking at the manual, I don't understand what is going on or how to get to other areas of the software.

After listening to P, it sounds like I'd be better off not messing with it.

The manual says it can be used to collect data during a dyno run that can be sent back to Zipper's for analysis. That'd be fantastic! But, I know the local HD shop doesn't have a clue how to do it.

I wished there were an emulator that I could play with so the next time I schedule a dyno session, I could just hook up my laptop to the bike while they are pulling their runs, and I could save each file to email later. I can just see them now if I said, "Hang on... I've got to find out what it says in the manual next. ...Hey bud, what do you think this means?"
 

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I wished there were an emulator that I could play with so the next time I schedule a dyno session, I could just hook up my laptop to the bike while they are pulling their runs, and I could save each file to email later. I can just see them now if I said, "Hang on... I've got to find out what it says in the manual next. ...Hey bud, what do you think this means?"
lol........there you go Joe, thinking again! That's a brilliant product idea (assuming it doesn't already exist :clap:). Really, it's all just 1's and 0's at the end of the day. Build it and they will come.

It seems like I read something about my Screaming Eagle Race tuner having some emulator capabilities....but I may have just been having some kinda flashback.......:cool:..
 
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